Firelands Raid Changes Incoming

zukki said:
With regards to heroic rag and the nerfs that are incoming, I can assure you even with the nerfs, he is not gonna be loleasy and will definitely take even hardcore guilds weeks if not months to clear so rest assured, the fight will still be challenging for those who are looking for a challenge. Heroic rag was so hard for so many guilds that many and I stress again many guilds who were 6/7hm on the 2nd week of 4.2 release are still 6/7hm currently so its still gonna be a challenge. :)

Even the heroic fights, are not gonna be easy so relax guise.... Its still gonna be difficult just not shit ass hard difficult. For those who are keen to try out content b4 nerfs to heroic rag, rest assured that the fight would have been so hard you'd prob piss in your pants and cry just by pulling :p
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Nah, that wasn't what i meant. I know that Heroic Rag is no pushover, but tackling it with the nerfs, however challenging it still is, just makes me feel a little disappointed because this isn't even the hardest that we are going for. Wiping isn't fun, true, but why do you think that top guilds have that sense of Euphoria for getting his ass down after hundreds or even thousands of wipes? We had that happen, when we owned Rag after 3 weeks. Heroic Shannox wasn't even half that because its just so easy as compared to Rag.

To me, beating the content at the hardest stage would be the best form of satisfaction. I know some of you guys will probably rebutt with something like "But if you can't even get him down, its at least better tackling it with a slight nerf and getting it rather than not getting it at all." True, that would be the case. But then again, that's not my point.
 
Yunomiko said:
Nah, that wasn't what i meant. I know that Heroic Rag is no pushover, but tackling it with the nerfs, however challenging it still is, just makes me feel a little disappointed because this isn't even the hardest that we are going for. Wiping isn't fun, true, but why do you think that top guilds have that sense of Euphoria for getting his ass down after hundreds or even thousands of wipes? We had that happen, when we owned Rag after 3 weeks. Heroic Shannox wasn't even half that because its just so easy as compared to Rag.

To me, beating the content at the hardest stage would be the best form of satisfaction. I know some of you guys will probably rebutt with something like "But if you can't even get him down, its at least better tackling it with a slight nerf and getting it rather than not getting it at all." True, that would be the case. But then again, that's not my point.
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If you guys haven't got Rhyolith before the nerf I predict you will easily kill H Rhyolith/Baleroc/Staghelm/Beth within about a week and it will feel much like H Shannox. Alysrazor not sure either way depends on what they change but could have the same fate if all damage/hp is reduced by 20%.
 
It really depends on what the nerfs are. They could nerf the health by a smaller amount or just make the abilities that would kill us hit softer. There is always room to nerf an encounter such that it is still challenging but yet more forgiving at the same time. I'm sure blizz knows what they are doing. The t11 heroic nerfs came and it definitely wasnt all cake after either.

If its just a straight 20% nerf to his health on a fight such as baleroc esp given the fact that its a tank and spank fight then it would definitely lose much of its appeal seeing as the that fight is based ard high dps requirements. Rag was always going to a step up in difficulty as its the end boss of a raid. Which end boss of a raid doesnt have a steep step up in difficulty? (At least in the cata expansion)

They could nerf other parts of a mechanic like for example in Rag, maybe meteors take 150% longer to spawn or engulfing ticks for less dmg etc, it really depends on the nature of the nerf and how they implement it. The rag nerf was a straight nerf to health to help guild's cope with the meteor phase. Now, more guilds can transition into p4 with lesser meteors which essentially means not wiping immediately as you only can have 2 meteors up b4 p4.

Our slooooooooooow kill on rag imo was partly attributed to us deciding to split the initial 10s grp. If you include gearing up new ppl, getting new ppl up to speed on the mechanics and allowing for trials to be tested while in rag, maybe more ppl would see y we are slow. I'm not saying we are awesome in skills but clearly some fault of the slow kill was due to what I mentioned above. I can rmb wiping to silly stuff like add assignments during the transitions as ppl just didnt understand where they were supposed to go and this was happening 3-4 weeks into trying to kill rag just cuz we had so many new ppl in the raid at 1 point. Perhaps if we kept with the initial 10s, we might have progressed at a faster rate. Who knows?

Anyway, main point is nerfs coming are to help ppl who are slower clear content faster so more ppl get to see the content that blizz designed. Fights are still going to be challenging. So for better or worse, the nerfs are coming and I'm definitely looking foward to them just cuz I wanna kill stuff as Evilbee said. I totally agree with his views.
 
Yuno, I agree with most of your points but you gotta understand that we are not a top guild. We are not at the cutting edge of progression where we are entitled to that kind of feeling (Sad but true). You also said you were on Rag for 3 weeks b4 actually killing him. Tbh, the initial raid grp has been on him for almost 6 weeks and when any raid comes to that point, trust me man its not fun at all. Look at Tai and you have your answer. Some ppl nearly gave up too I can tell you.

@blueman

If what you say is really the case, I'm more than happy to take those nerfs and be 5/7hm. :D Thats how I want the game to be to me!!!!!!11111oneone
 
Meh, I think both angles are very valid.

Yes, it is nice to kill bosses when they are difficult as intended, and be able to say that we went 'x/7 HM' pre-nerf. Afterall, the satisfaction of overcoming a challenge and the ability to show-off (don't deny it) are very key reasons why we play this game.

However, there comes a point where wipes just get annoying, and burn-out starts to set in. That is probably when a nerf is needed, to keep players interested. It also serves to let others (who may not be blessed with good abilities, a good team or a mix of both) to see content that they are arguably paying for. This point usually comes later, but for some reason Blizz decided to shift it earlier.

Personally I'm neutral to this change, but just hope that the nerf does not make these bosses laughably easy.
 
zukki said:
It really depends on what the nerfs are. They could nerf the health by a smaller amount or just make the abilities that would kill us hit softer. There is always room to nerf an encounter such that it is still challenging but yet more forgiving at the same time. I'm sure blizz knows what they are doing. The t11 heroic nerfs came and it definitely wasnt all cake after either.

If its just a straight 20% nerf to his health on a fight such as baleroc esp given the fact that its a tank and spank fight then it would definitely lose much of its appeal seeing as the that fight is based ard high dps requirements. Rag was always going to a step up in difficulty as its the end boss of a raid. Which end boss of a raid doesnt have a steep step up in difficulty? (At least in the cata expansion)

They could nerf other parts of a mechanic like for example in Rag, maybe meteors take 150% longer to spawn or engulfing ticks for less dmg etc, it really depends on the nature of the nerf and how they implement it. The rag nerf was a straight nerf to health to help guild's cope with the meteor phase. Now, more guilds can transition into p4 with lesser meteors which essentially means not wiping immediately as you only can have 2 meteors up b4 p4.

Our slooooooooooow kill on rag imo was partly attributed to us deciding to split the initial 10s grp. If you include gearing up new ppl, getting new ppl up to speed on the mechanics and allowing for trials to be tested while in rag, maybe more ppl would see y we are slow. I'm not saying we are awesome in skills but clearly some fault of the slow kill was due to what I mentioned above. I can rmb wiping to silly stuff like add assignments during the transitions as ppl just didnt understand where they were supposed to go and this was happening 3-4 weeks into trying to kill rag just cuz we had so many new ppl in the raid at 1 point. Perhaps if we kept with the initial 10s, we might have progressed at a faster rate. Who knows?

Anyway, main point is nerfs coming are to help ppl who are slower clear content faster so more ppl get to see the content that blizz designed. Fights are still going to be challenging. So for better or worse, the nerfs are coming and I'm definitely looking foward to them just cuz I wanna kill stuff as Evilbee said. I totally agree with his views.
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Unfortunately given that they are already comparing it to the t11 nerfs at t12 release it will indeed be basically a total nerf of damage and boss health pools maybe even removing mechanics which is just sad when mentioned in the same sentence as heroic modes. I would worry less if they had said nothing and made small changes the fact they announced it will happen in a week seems like they predict backlash.

How many have seen the t11 normal modes since t12 release cause when we went back for Sinestra we quickly cleared and the fact we were trying to die on V&T and couldn't was quite funny but if the same thing is intended for current content quite depressing. I hope my interpretation of their intentions is in fact incorrect and only normal modes get the t11 treatment with heroics getting slight adjustments.
 
Pretty sure the nerfs to t11 heroics were not THAT drastic. Or at least I dun remember T11 heroic being piss easy when I was at ilvl360~ and trying to kill them.

I also feel that the reason they are announcing the incoming nerfs in advancethis time is to keep the subscribers happy as some ppl were whining as usual, about stealth nerfs etc so blizz has decided to go ahead with an announcement.

I personally dun think the t12 heroics will get nerfs that make them comparable to t11 normal mode. I pugged bwd normal with 5 dps who were pulling 10-15k dps and we even managed to get atra down with half the raid dead b4 the first flight phase. That would really be a joke and I definitely wouldnt enjoy the thrill of killing them as much.

Personally dun think blizz is that stupid but who knows? Anyway, we'll see on the 19th.
 
T11 heroics were NOT nerfed for T12 release but they clearly mentioned the T12 changes would be like T11 stuff upon firelands release yet both norm + heroic changed. Also glad you have some standards thought you were happy to just be handed the kills :p
 
My 2 Cents!

Both firelands and next 4.3 raid neeeeeeeeded buffs like icc where over a period of time you did more dps more healing and the BIGGEST more Hp slowly getting you used to fight's and buffing you along the way.

I'm sure Icc was most susessfull raid ever in terms of the amount of ppl that raided it.Just about every hardcore Us/Eu guild would clear H's in the 1st month.Leaving 60+% of WoW players on content unless nerfed ppl will never see or play before next pacth comes out.Even with 30% buff H LK was in a good place and far from faceroll.Really just allowing players to see content that they pay for.

Guild breaking old school bossers like last in TK and SSC are a joke and im glad it never stayed that way.
 
They're not nerfing the mechanics. The only things that will be easier will be healing/dps required. Anything that used to 1shot you, will 1shot you. Anything that didn't, still doesn't. You fail mechanics, you still die. It's just lowering the gear requirement. Means things like H bale and H rhyo are more in reach now.
 
Rushuna said:
They're not nerfing the mechanics. The only things that will be easier will be healing/dps required. Anything that used to 1shot you, will 1shot you. Anything that didn't, still doesn't. You fail mechanics, you still die. It's just lowering the gear requirement. Means things like H bale and H rhyo are more in reach now.
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^^^^ This, we have a winner lol.
 
Rushuna said:
They're not nerfing the mechanics. The only things that will be easier will be healing/dps required. Anything that used to 1shot you, will 1shot you. Anything that didn't, still doesn't. You fail mechanics, you still die. It's just lowering the gear requirement. Means things like H bale and H rhyo are more in reach now.
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Don't completely agree with the idea in general but they do in fact change damage along with these nerfs in general see my example of V&T touching orbs while phased was almost instant death now can run through them with huge stacks and barely hurts breath same deal.
 
Ever thought that when you did heroic v&t recently, your ilvl was at least 10 lvls higher? That might account for the 1 shot last time vs not even barely touching you now eh? Coupled with increased healing etc, gear plays a huge role in making encounters easy esp when you outgear the content by so much.
 
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/patch-notes/4-2-0#dungeons

Basically take a hint these are the changes they did to t11 raids (including damage reductions to many mechanics which compound to a far greater than 20% difference) not saying they plan the exact same fate for t12 heroics but they did suggest it. The bit that most still seem to miss despite me saying it a few times they didn't touch t11 heroics in 4.2. Not against slight adjustments to encounters but a sweeping nerf like t11 got for current content no thanks.
 
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